Tell me when you plan on moving to Western Australia. I would need at least two months notice so as to make arrangements to move. Like To Hell, Norway !!
moggy lover
JoinedPosts by moggy lover
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22
Be very glad you don't live next door to me.
by Lady Lee inin the last 7 years 3 neighbors have died.
all were not expected.. when i lived in winnipeg our neighbor died.
he was healthy one day and gone the next.
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3
Aramaic vs Hebrew / Greek Scriptures.....
by EndofMysteries inmatt 1 just for an easy comparing and arugments sake.
just asking for little bit of help, do all original scrolls in those languages from which all bibles are made, do they all say the same thing, and are all the names the same?
trying to compare, and appeared the aramaic (trying to find a aramaic bible version), but the names appeared diff in it's language and scriptures a lil out of order.
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moggy lover
The subject you are inquiring after is called "Textual Criticism" and involves the detailed analysis of some 30,000 handwritten manuscripts going back to the 2nd Century AD in the case of the NT and to about 1 BC in the case of the OT.
As far as the OT is concerned manuscripts are available in Hebrew and a Greek translation called the Septuagint, which may in many places differ from the original Hebrew. The reasons behind this variation are complex and too detailed to go into here. As far as the Aramaic is concerned, there are no Aramaic manuscripts of the OT as such, apart from copies of what is called the Samaritan Pentateuch, but ancient commentaries of sections of OT are available but here too, there are slight variations with the Hebrew.
It appears that the OT canon remained in a state of flux for several centuries as different traditions of manuscript transmission were being effected. This state of OT variables is referred to as "precanonical fluidity" by several scholars. This fluidity is not just a matter of different text forms but aslo of a plurality of what are called "redactional traditions" which caused various textual types to be heavily edited as well as transmitted. This may account for differences not only between the Hebrew and the Greek, but between the various Hebrew manuscripts as well.
The Hebrew text that we now have and which is called the Standardized Masoretic Text is a development of the Aleppo Codex which first appeared in completed form in 896 AD and was edited by one Moshe ben Asher. The printed edition of this text is called the Leningrad Codex and forms the basis of all translations that are currently being done on the basis of the Hebrew OT, and is now the standardized text from which comparisons are made with the Greek text. Despite the variables, there is a remarkable symmetry in the flow of the text and we are assured that no doctrinal intrusion was undertaken to blunt the integrity of the original writings.
As far as the NT is concerned, it was obvious right from the start that the early church took its evangelizing responsibilites seriously and almost from the start undertook to transmit the message of the NT into various languages. Probaly the first language that the NT was translated into from the original Greek, was Latin which was first begun in the 2nd Century AD. There are, again several editions of these Latin versions which are collectively called the Old Latin to contrast them with the lated single edition which attempted to harmonize the variants in the Latin. This edition of the Old Latin texts was called the Latin Vulgate, and was the first textual example of harmonizing a text in any language. This was first published in 386 AD and with the course of time itself became divergent since we have at present some 8,000 Latin manuscripts of the Vulgate all with their variations. Again, attempts were made to standardize the text, and the edition we now have was that made in 1592, and this "Clementine" edition of the Vulgate has been the standard of the RC Church. The name came from Pope Clement the 8th under whose supervision this task was undertaken.
Other important languages that became represented in translation from the early centuries of the church were Syriac, [or Aramaic] which dates from the 5th century, the Coptic from the same time, and the Gothic also from this period. Later manuscripts would come out in Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian, and several in the ancient version of Arabic. It must be remembered that no manuscript was ever undertaken in Hebrew. The various Hebrew translations of portions of the NT that the Watchtower uses with such critical acclaim, are in fact printed editions of translations that date back to at least the 15th century when printing was first invented in the West.
The importance of these ancient translations is rich in tradition but limited in scope. None of the original manuscripts of these versions is extanct, and therefore existing manuscripts must be subjected to textual criticism to detirmine the original text as nearly as possible. In addition, in certain types of variants, some of these versions cannot reflect what the original Greek may have said.
For instance, Latin does not have the definite article, and the Syriac does not the syntactical ability to distinguish between the aorist and perfect tenses. However, having siad that, it must be admitted that the greatest benefit of versional evidence, that we get from these traditions, is that it can show that a particular reading was known in the place and time of the version's origin.
To get a better picture of this fascinatingly complex subject I would reccomend reading:
NT Textual Criticism A Concise Guide by David Alan Black.
Biblical Criticism: Historical, Literary, and Textual by Harrison, Waltke, Guthrie and Fee in the Contemporary Evangelical Perspective Series.
Introduction To NT Textual Criticism by J Greenlee
And related articles found in such Bible reserch volumes such as the Interpreter's Bible Dictionary, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, The Revised International Standard Encyclopedia. Some of these are available for free on the Net, others should be available in any good public library.
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Current WT Library CD
by grewupjw1969 inim looking for the current cd if anyone has it and is willing to burn me a copy.
i am willing to pay for it along with shipping.. .
grewup.
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moggy lover
Thanks a million zillion tetraquintillion, Black Sheep. I got it and installed it.
Works beautifully.
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Golden Age Quotes--You have to see it to believe it.
by blondie inquestion: will husband and wife live together after the resurrection is completed, if both are in harmony with god?.
answer: the scriptures do not reveal what the relationship of men and women will be after the resurrection is completed.
the most that we know is that there will be no children born during the last 100 years of the millennium (isa.
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moggy lover
Conversation held during the post millennium "new world":
He: "Oh Justine, you are still so ravishingly beautiful after all these centuries. Your eyes are still as blue as a mountain lake in Switzerland [use other metaphors for brown, black, grey, amber etc] and your body is just as desirable as when we married more than a millennium ago. I love you so much I can spray your body with chocolate and lick it all off"
Him: "it's Justin"
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Current WT Library CD
by grewupjw1969 inim looking for the current cd if anyone has it and is willing to burn me a copy.
i am willing to pay for it along with shipping.. .
grewup.
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moggy lover
Same goes for me
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136
Memorial 2010 Your Experiences
by scotinsw injust got back from memorial.
only went so that i could say to my parents that i had gone and to remind myself why i left.. oh my word!!!
it was sooooo painful.. got there a bit late - it was a couple of minutes into the talk.
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moggy lover
Memorial vs Tandoorie chicken, jalfrazi and rice pilau?????
NO Contest!!!!
Cheers
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Maher Shalal Hash Baz: do you know this guy?
by behemot inhttp://newyork.timeout.com/articles/music/83566/maher-shalal-hash-baz-at-the-new-museum-concert-preview.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/maher_shalal_hash_baz.
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moggy lover
There was a TV series a few years back called "Threat Matrix". One of my favourites but which did not run for more than one series for some reason. Anyway, there was this guy in it who had the name Mahershallalhashbaz Something or other.
Great stuff. Anyone heard of the show or the actor?
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Help in finding a previous topic.
by moggy lover inat least a year or even two years ago, there was a fascinating post which listed the frequency of biblical chapters as used in watchtower literature.
i recall that matt 24 was given the pride of place with some 10-20 thousand citations, and next in descending order were other chapters.
some chapters such as john 2 and 3 were hardly referred to at all.. i know that i saved it to my hard drive but, in researching some material about the "generation" of matt 24, can not trace it.
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moggy lover
At least a year or even two years ago, there was a fascinating post which listed the frequency of biblical chapters as used in Watchtower literature. I recall that Matt 24 was given the pride of place with some 10-20 thousand citations, and next in descending order were other chapters. Some chapters such as John 2 and 3 were hardly referred to at all.
I know that I saved it to my hard drive but, in researching some material about the "generation" of Matt 24, can not trace it. [I have to sought my files out, honestly]
Anyone remember it? He asked, hopefully?
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Resurrection or redemption 3 times?
by EndofMysteries inanyone like to chime in on what they think this scripture means.....job 33:23-29, but i'm quoting just vs 28, 29. i checked 3 bible translations all say the same thing........"he has redeemed my soul from passing into the pit, and my life itself will see the light.
look!
all these things god performs, two times, three times, in the case of an able-bodied man, to turn back his soul from the pit, that he may be enlightend with the light of those living..
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moggy lover
It appears that this entire section beginning with verse 1 in chap 33 is a discourse by Elihu, one of Job's comforters and during this discourse one of the things he touches on is how God communicates with humankind to save them form the ravages of a hazardous afterlife in what is called the "pit".
He already alluded to two of these ways prior to that part of Chap 33 that you quote. First there are "visions" [vss 15-17] then are "afflictions" [vss 19-22] and now in this section he introduces a third. This is a "malekh" which can be translated as "angel" or "messenger" and who acts as mediator. The identity of this mediator is not discussed, except to say that he would be "one among a thousand" or a very rare person indeed. However this may have another meaning. According to the New Bible Commentary this "angel" or "messenger" being "one in a thousand" may also mean that God has several of these ministering angels of mercy.
This messenger does the following:
1 "reminds the man what is right for him" [23]
2 "mediates and says [to God]: be garcious to him and deliver him from the pit" [24]
3 " finds a ransom for him" [24]
4 This messenger pleads with God that the man be returned to good health. [25]
As a result of this ministration the person is healed, prays to God, and is accepted by God [26]
He repents [27, 28]
Vs 29 is problemactic. The words "two, three, times" are idiomatic and could either be literal or metaphorical:
1 If literal it would refer to the three means that Elihu has discussed about how God communicates: Visions, illness, an angel.
2 Or it may simply mean oftentimes [See NASB, NJB] and that God oftentimes attempts to get the person to be reconciled to God.
The upshot is that the man who responds submissively to God's dealings with him regains good health and joy.
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A bible I picked up, from 1901, has Jehovah in OT more then NWT
by EndofMysteries ini was at a thrift store, and picking up some different bibles to compare, this is "the holy bible containing the old and new testaments translated out of the original tongues being the version set forth in ad 1611 compared with the most ancient authorites and revised ad 1881-1885 newly edited by the american revision committee ad 1901 standard edition new york thomas nelson and sons 381-385 fourth avenue george e day secretary of the old testament company and j henry thayer secretary of the new testament company, copyright 1901 by international council of religious education".
anyway, i was surprised to find a bible outside of nwt with jehovah everywhere in the ot, however i haven't found it once in the nt on this bible.
was this bible associated with the jw's at the turn of the century?.
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moggy lover
The Bible translation you are referring to is called the American Standard Version [ASV] which was published in 1901 as a result of a copyright agreement with the Revised Version translation committee.
In 1881, when what was called the Westcott and Hort NT text was published, it was decided to revise the KJV which was based on an inferior text. The Revised Version Translation Committee was made up of British and American scholars. During the course of the work certain minor disagreements arose as to the way the translation should proceed. On the one hand the Americans were more radical than their British counterparts who wanted a minimalist revision that kept as close to the KJV as possible.
The Americans saw themselves as bringing a fresh approach to the traditional renderings of the KJV. One of the areas of disagreement was the use of Jehovah in the OT as consistently as possible, whereas the British revisers wished to keep to the traditional LORD. It was agreed that when the British edition of the Revised Version [RV] was published in 1881 the Americans would hold off from publishing their version till twenty years had passed. This term expired in 1901 when what is now referred to as the ASV was released.
In 1944, after 43 years of ownership, Thomas Nelson sold the masthead for publication of this version to the Watchtower and since then the Watchtower edition of the ASV was very popular. In 1950 the Watchtower embarked on its own version of the NT which was released as the NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
The rank and file at this time would rip out the NT section of the ASV and bind it together with the NWT NT so that they had a continuous version that used Jehovah in both the NT and the Old.
In 1960 the Lockman foundation then purchased the rights to publish the ASV and promptly began a revision. This soon came to be known as the NASV and this is without doubt the most scholarly translation from a conservative, literal point of view. It is still selling very well and is second only to the NIV in world wide sales. The NASV reverted to the traditional use of LORD in the text basically because the word "Jehovah" which is neither Hebrew nor English, being a mongrel hybrid, does not represent any advancement in theological studies.
In 2001 the NASV was itself revised and since it was only available on the World Wide Web, it is come to be known as the WEB translation. Which is an acronym that can also stand for World English Bible. This latest version of the ASV uses Yahweh in the text of the OT. It can be downloaded for free from various sites such as E-Sword.
The Watchtower no longer possesses the copyright to the ASV and it can itself be downloaded from different sites.